Jessica Williams is no stranger to tackling complicated issues with humor. From being the youngest and first Black woman correspondent on âThe Daily Show With Jon Stewartâ to now starring opposite Jason Segel and Harrison Ford on the AppleTV+ show âShrinking,â Williams uses her improv skills and authenticity not only to entertain but also to hit on deep truths. âGrief settles in and it just changes you,â she says. âIt doesnât leave. It just makes a home in your body.â
In this episode of âThe Envelope,â Williams reflects on how personal experiences, including her years of therapy and the death of her partner, have shaped her performance. She also gets into her view of the âBlack lady therapistâ trope, the controversy surrounding J.K. Rowling and transgender rights, and what she learned while making the âFantastic Beastsâ films. Plus, Williams offers tips on âdecolonizingâ your garden. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.
Mark Olsen: Hello and welcome to âThe Envelopeâ from the Los Angeles Times, where we bring you in-depth conversations with some of the talents behind your favorite movies and TV shows. Iâm one of your hosts, Mark Olsen.
Yvonne Villarreal: And Iâm your other host, Yvonne Villarreal. And I have to say I was so, so excited when I found out we booked this weekâs guest. Mark, why donât you tell our listeners who you talked to?
Olsen: I spoke to Jessica Williams, and I have to say I was pretty excited about it too. Ever since she became the youngest correspondent on âThe Daily Showâ at age 22, as well as the first Black woman correspondent on the show, Jessica has just been this radiant talent.
![Jessica Williams](https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/611b981/2147483647/strip/true/crop/9000x6000+0+0/resize/2000x1333!/quality/75/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F3b%2Fa7%2Fa1be694547e895d146ada2759e5a%2Fla23-envelope-s5-apple-jessicawilliams-3x2-9000x6000-final-2x.jpg)
More than one profile of her has mentioned how quickly people feel like they know her â like she could be their friend. And from this conversation, itâs easy to see why. She has a way of addressing complicated issues in her work in a way that feels positive and useful. And so itâs no wonder she is now getting such acclaim for her role on the Apple TV+ show âShrinkingâ as Gaby, a therapist in a practice with characters played by Jason Segel and Harrison Ford.
Villarreal: Listen, I watch a lot of TV, but the moment that Jessica is carpool karaoke-ing with Harrison Ford to Sugar Rayâs song, like: all-time greatest moments on TV. But selfishly, I hope you also talk to her about her podcast-turned-TV show, â2 Dope Queens.â That podcast was such a staple in my car on the drive home from work back when we, you know, went into the office. It had this way of making you feel like you were meeting them for happy hour. The conversations were so loose and so funny. I hope you talked to her about that.
Olsen: Oh, we definitely talked about â2 Dope Queens,â and she had a lot to say about the really special and really immediate dynamic that she had between her and her co-host, Phoebe Robinson. And Jessica and I also talk a bit about gardening.
Villarreal: Oh!
Olsen: So letâs get to it.
Jessica, thanks so much for joining us.
Jessica Williams: Hi, Mark. Thanks for having me. Iâm really excited.
Olsen: So, Jessica, I understand the co-creators of âShrinkingâ â Jason Segel, Brett Goldstein and Bill Lawrence â tailored the role of Gaby to you. What is that like? Is there a moment where youâre like, âThis is what you think of me?â Is it strange when people say theyâve written something for you?
Williams: Thatâs funny. No, you know, I think they met with a few people and it was sort of this thing where in the first couple episodes you donât really see Gaby. But they knew whoever they hired that they wanted to tailor her, so I think I was one of a few that they considered. And then I remember having a really, really good initial meeting. It was super long. We talked about everything from therapy to basketball, and I just remember being like, âOh, that was actually really nice.â I really got along with them. They were all really cool. Like, âGood luck with the project. I hope it goes well,â you know, whatever happens. I just walked away really liking them.
And then I think maybe the next day they said they wanted to work with me. And what was great and what I was most excited about was Bill Lawrence and Jason and Brett, they were all just like, âYeah, we want to write to your sensibilities, and you can improvise on set, and so we want to figure out who Gaby is together.â
And initially with Gaby, they knew a couple of things. They knew that they wanted her to balance out Paul, whoâs played by Harrison Ford, and Jimmy, whoâs played by Jason Segel, at the office. So they knew they wanted her to be sort of a counterbalance to them. And so we knew she was kind of a bubblier person and then we kind of filled her in around that.
What was great was that even when we had our table read, Bill Lawrence was like, âMy rule usually is that you as the actor are in charge of your character. And if you feel like something doesnât make sense for the character, if you feel like youâd rather not do that or you would like to do something, you have free rein because I trust you with the character.â So that was really exciting and that literally was what it became on set. It was a really kind of magical experience on âShrinking.â
Olsen: Your main co-stars on the show, Jason Segel, Harrison Ford â on the one hand, Jason certainly knows his way around a sitcom. And then Harrison Ford is, you know, Harrison Ford. What was that like in those early scenes? Because if nothing else, I would imagine those two people have very different energies. How did you figure out how to kind of navigate with the both of them?
Williams: Yeah, actually thatâs a really good question. Nobodyâs asked me that before, but they do, they do have two different energies, completely. And so in the beginning I was really nervous about that. Iâd already seen all of Jasonâs stuff for the most part, and Harrisonâs too, I guess, but I guess I just did some light rewatching.
But I found that on my first day, one of our first scenes was the three of us in the kitchen. And that was really helpful because I found that we all had a pretty quick dynamic that we could understand. And with Gaby, who I play, and Jimmy, who Jason plays, they both sort of turn into siblings when theyâre around Harrisonâs character of Paul. And they both sort of, kind of talk sâ to each other and sort of, kind of try and vie for Paulâs affection, which I donât think is that far off from when people usually meet Harrison Ford. Like, you probably just want to have him pat you on the back and tell you, âYou did decent!â Like, you kind of just want him to tell you did a decent job at minimum. And so that really fueled us, and we figured out our dynamic really quickly.
Sometimes I think when youâre doing the first season of a show, especially the first few episodes, it is this really kind of gentle experience of trying to figure out if we all work well together and if these characters make enough sense. And luckily they did. They did make sense. Jason was really easy to kind of lean on as far as how heâs used to doing comedy stuff, and I feel like he was a very good team captain for all of us on the show. And it was really fun to kind of â he just kind of had my back and he had all of our backs. And so it was really nice to kind of know pretty quickly that I had that support, and especially in regards to trying to figure out Gaby and Paulâs dynamic with Harrison too.
Olsen: Given your background in improv, how is Harrison Ford as an improv partner?
Williams: Heâs good. I mean, Harrison Ford is really funny, and heâs always been funny. I think the reason why his, you know, most famous characters work: Han Soloâs funny. Indyâs funny, you know? He had it. I wasnât worried about that at all. And who am I to be worried about the legend, you know? He was good. Heâs a giving actor too, like heâs just a damn good actor.
In the beginning it took me like a day to get used to his face because it is a little bit of an adjustment period, realizing just how good of an actor he is and how gorgeous he is and how seared into my mind his existence is simply from being alive in America and liking film. And so once I got used to that, it was a no-brainer. I think one of my favorite, my most favorite, relationships on the show is Gaby and Paulâs relationship. There was just a lot of meat on the bone, as some people say. It wrote itself, Gaby and Paul, I think â it didnât, we have amazing writers â but as an actor, it was such a gift to be able to do those scenes with Harrison. Like you have this millennial Black lady and this older white guy in his 80s. Thatâs a really fun relationship that you donât really see on camera.
Olsen: One thing I like so much about this show is the way that there are all these different pairings of characters. For example, the scene where your character Gaby goes to her ex-husbandâs art show and you get these great moments both with the character of Liz and the character of Sean, and then you have this sort of meltdown. First of all, a scene like that, how much of that is improv? Do you guys kind of workshop stuff before youâre shooting? Or how did something like Gabyâs meltdown come about?
Williams: I was really, really excited by the time we got to those later episodes because we were finally able to start mixing and matching our characters. And one of the things, even before I signed on to do the shows, they knew that Gaby and Liz would become really, really good friends. And Iâm really, really proud of that because I love working with Christa. And I also just think that Luke Tennie, who plays Sean, is just an incredible actor. And so I was really excited to be able to kind of break off with them.
That episode is directed by Zach Braff, who has a longstanding relationship with Christa and Bill Lawrence from âScrubs,â because Bill Lawrence created âScrubsâ as well. And Zach really understands comedy and comedic beats. Now, with the breakdown that Gaby had, itâs sort of like a âwho told who?â thing because a lot of that was improvised, but I thought somebody jumped in and told me to say that my ex-husband loved thumbs in the butt, but the writer said nobody wrote that.
[Clip from âShrinkingâ: GABY: I shouldnât do this, but I will. LIZ: No, donât. GABY: Iâm not going to kink shame, but maybe I will. LIZ: No. GABY: He loves thumbs in the butt. LIZ : All right. SEAN: It was nice meeting you. GABY: That was part of all the work I did. LIZ: Mmhmm. GABY: I put thumbs in the butt. LIZ: Yep. SEAN: It was nice meeting you. GABY: Sometimes I would put two thumbs in his butt â SEAN: Thank you. GABY: â and heâd be like, âMore, more.â SEAN: Sorry. It was a lovely event. Lovely. I mean, yâall just killed this sâ. GABY: Nicoâs a finger-in-the-butt manâŠ]
Williams: I said one of the writers told me that, âcause I didnât make that up, but theyâre kind of putting it back on me. So I genuinely donât know what parts of that breakdown begin with me and begin with the writing or ends. But it just became what it became. And thatâs just one of those things where you just try and stay as present as possible and you just kind of get in this flow state and you just kind of go.
And Iâve always loved â like I tried out for my schoolâs improv team when I was 14, when I was in high school â and I love not knowing whatâs going to happen. And I had that in high school. I had that when I did ComedySportz in college and Upright Citizens Brigade. And then I had it when I got âThe Daily Showâ at 22. And then I had it when I did â2 Dope Queensâ in New York. And I love not knowing whatâs going to happen. It really excites me to be a little scared, and it excites me to kind of black out and be so present with my partner that I donât know whatâs going to happen.
Now that Iâm in my 30s, I feel like I really homed in on that. And I really came back from doing âFantastic Beasts,â which was a very rigid movie where you have to stick to the script. And then I jumped into âLove Life,â which was this really elastic sort of thing where we developed this character that I played together. And it was really like the first time that I felt like I was a slightly older actor that had homed in on what she wanted to do.
Olsen: I mean, itâs interesting to hear you say that you feel like youâve developed that skill, that itâs something thatâs kind of come through all your experiences. Because Iâll be honest with you, Jessica, I donât really understand acting, like I donât know how it works exactly, and the idea of being that sort of present and open to whatâs happening but while in character, like freely reacting as Gaby? That, to me, is the dark art. Thatâs the thing I canât â
Williams: Thatâs really funny.
Olsen: â quite get my head around.
Williams: Everyone does it. Really, thereâs just no secret. Everyone does it differently, and I think itâs like â on this job, about doing comedy in this aspect and about being Gaby, sheâs a really present, heart-on-her sleeve person, so sheâs about being open. And so itâs about improvising within the confines of the scene. When I learn the lines the night before or the morning of, I try not to overrun them, but I like to have in my head three different responses that I would do, three alternative lines, to each line. And I try and really focus on the intention of the scene. And Bill Lawrence really likes to get â he calls it getting the base. So Iâll give them the lines. Iâll give them the lines in the first few takes. And then heâs just like, âThen go nuts.âAnd usually they found that on this show, for me, for Gaby, they would just use the âgo nutsâ lines.
Olsen: One thing, as well, that I like so much about Gaby â and I hope this doesnât sound silly â is she has great outfits throughout the show.
Williams: Thatâs not silly.
Olsen: I feel like it says a lot about the character, and Iâm curious: How much of her look and vibe on the show do you feel like youâre allowed to have input on?
Williams: A lot. I got to work with Allyson Fanger a lot. I think costumes and wardrobe, theyâre doing just great work. Itâs like you almost shouldnât notice the costumes, but they should be in your subconscious as a viewer. Itâs a really delicate line to walk. And so I know, for me, I really care about fashion and I love the wardrobe â it helps me understand the character better. So whenever Allyson Fanger wanted to do a fitting, I was there. Like, whatever she wanted, I was like, âYes, whatever you need.â And for Gaby, they always knew she wanted her to be bright and colorful. When I met with Bill and Brett and Jason, they said that it was important to the writers that whenever you saw Gaby on screen, youâd be like, âHoly sâ, I want a therapist like that. Where did she get that?â You know, âWhereâd she get that outfit?â
I was really lucky because we worked a lot with this local L.A. company called Big Bud Press. And they do these really amazing, really inclusive, kind of really colorful jumpsuits, and they make them in just great sizing. âCause, Iâm like, as a woman, Iâm like a size 14, 12, 16. Iâm like a â I think itâd be called midsize or curvy or whatever, who gives a sâ? But it was really important for me to see her be cute on screen and look like me and my friends.
A lot of what Gaby wears is at a great price point, like, thatâs more accessible than when youâre watching TV and youâre like, âWhat the fâ are they wearing? Why are they so together? That is so expensive.â Itâs like, no, we donât want to do that. Sheâs just, like, a lady. We didnât want to show something that felt aspirational and rich. We wanted to show something that just felt aspirational and doable for her.
Olsen: And then the show is about these therapists and has a really interesting take on the therapist-client relationship. And youâve talked often about your own experiences with therapy, and Iâm wondering how that has impacted your relationship to the show.
Williams: Yeah, Iâve done loads of therapy. I go in and out with my therapist that Iâve had for about eight years, and I love her. She always has me check in with myself. She makes me a more thoughtful person. Itâs just such an important thing for me in my day to day. And so with âShrinking,â I was really excited to play a woman whose profession has really been a big part of my life for the last eight or nine years. And itâs affected me in that I feel a little more self-aware, hopefully.
Olsen: There was an article that Aisha Harris did for NPRâs âAll Things Consideredâ that was about this kind of TV trope of the âBlack lady therapist.â Iâm curious how you related to that idea and if there were ways in which you did or did not want Gaby to fall into what some of those more typical versions of that character might be.
Williams: Yeah, thatâs a great article. There was also a really interesting discussion on Twitter about it that I thought was really cool. Yeah. I think in a lot of ways, that is a version of the âmagical Negroâ trope, which is another trope in film and TV thatâs like a Black person that feels cozy enough that you can tell all your problems to and that theyâll kind of take care of you, like a Black nanny or something, which is another trope, and they donât have an inner life or inner world of their own. And itâs sort of this profession that allows you to get kind of comforted and coddled by a Black woman â which, I think, there is a part of society that really responds to how cozy we seem. I donât know, maybe it goes back to us being caretakers a lot of the time, or âthe helpâ in households, which is really fascinating and really interesting.
I think with Gaby, the reason why I wanted to do it, knowing about that trope, was â I knew that they were all therapists and that Jason was a therapist and Harrison was a therapist and Gaby was a therapist, and that Gaby was quite messy. And I think one of the keys to breaking any trope or stereotype is to attack things with specificity as much as possible. Specificity, specificity, specificity. And I think, knowing before I signed on that Iâd be able to improvise meant that I was going to be able to listen to pop-punk in my car in a scene and sing Sugar Ray with Harrison Ford because I do those things on my own. I was able to bring that to the character. And that, in its own, breaks out of a trope because itâs specific.
And then not only that, but then the white people in charge, both on the show and both at the network, need to allow room for the Black actors, the people of color, the queer people, to breathe on screen. I got really lucky because thereâs not a lot of environments for Black people to do that. There is this thing where people will hire minorities or others and say, âOK, now you have to be mixed,â or, âOK, now you have to be within these confines. Now you have to play this trope.â Which, you know what, shoutout to every Black person, woman of color thatâs had to get on screen and play a therapy trope, because I donât want to invalidate that experience because you had to freaking get on screen and you had to fâing work. I donât wanna slip into that slippery slope of invalidating those that have come before that have had to play those parts because I think thatâs bullsâ. You know, thatâs being too hard on our people.
However, now that weâre aware of the trope, that means that the white people in charge have to let us breathe. They have to let us exist. They have to let us live. They have to let us be awkward and quirky and funny and confused. They have to give us the opportunity to sing Sugar Ray with Harrison Ford. They have to ask you, âWhat do you wanna sing with Harrison Ford?â I was like, âSugar Ray.â Theyâre like, âGreat, weâre going to do that.â
[Clip from âShrinkingâ: (GABY and PAUL singing âEvery Morningâ by Sugar Ray.)]
Olsen: âShrinkingâ is a show that at its core, explores grief. And thatâs something that â itâs not an easy topic to tackle because on the one hand itâs very relatable, but itâs also something thatâs extremely personal. Gaby, the character, is going through a lot of different issues, both grieving her marriage and grieving her best friend, and yet sheâs so often kind of the energizer of things. She is this supportive character for other people. Was it difficult for you to create space for the character of Gaby to address her own emotions, to have her own grief on the show, that she wasnât always having to support everybody else?
Williams: No, it was â Iâm a very emotional person. I cry, you know, all the time. Now, I think as an actor itâs important for me to be open to however Iâm feeling on a day. I think when I was a younger actress, you wanted to be tough, you know, like it was like, especially as like a woman of color, but that doesnât serve me. And then I personally have had my own grief and like, I had a boyfriend die a few years ago of a heroin overdose. And, you know, Iâm grieving all the time. Some days itâs good, some days itâs bad. But I know I came out of that experience having had a profound sense of loss and I had a palette â a painterâs palette â and then I came out with different colors. Like, you know, grief settles in and it just changes you. It doesnât leave, it just makes a home in your body.
And so, ever since that happened, Iâm especially, especially always open to a hug. Iâm always open to laughing or crying; it doesnât bother me at all. And so to play Gaby, it was actually more of a cathartic experience, where we needed each other. It was a delight. Itâs like the best, one of the best, jobs Iâve ever had was playing her, because emotionally I really understood her and I was able to go and do comedy, and sometimes I would just do hard comedy as Gaby, and then sometimes I would just be emotional as Gaby and sad and grieving. It was just such a blessing of a role because I got to explore all the facets of Gaby, which also helps break her out of that Black female therapist trope too.
Olsen: Jessica, I find it striking how comedy is so often a way to tackle really hard topics but also prompt more thoughtful and meaningful conversations. Looking back at your career from âThe Daily Show,â â2 Dope Queensâ and now âShrinking,â how do you find balance between entertaining with humor but also engaging audiences on a deeper level with these very real social and emotional issues?
Williams: Hmm. I think a lot of people actually do have this, especially people of color, queer people, women, that have to straddle a line in their day-to-day of just kind of what comes with living in a complicated society. I think in my head, as I get older, I think we will always have this struggle between what you would consider good and evil or right and wrong. Sometimes I see it as a tug-of-war where people are tugging in one way and, you know, for a few years itâs this, and then weâre tugging in the other way. As opposed to one day, in the immediate future, everythingâs going to be taken care of.
And so thereâs this interesting gray area that we all live in where, when youâre sad, actually, things can be profoundly funny. And like, I know when my ex-partner passed and I watched, you know, when he died, it was beyond sad. I literally thought I would die because I was so sad. But around that time, things were actually really, really funny that made me laugh, you know?
And also just being a person that â living in a society that you have the pandemic, which is incredibly sad â people are always dying, you know, which is always really sad, and most times things are unresolved â youâre still laughing sometimes, hopefully, or youâre finding moments to smile. And I think that sort of speaks to where we are as far as how complicated the experience is of being alive right now.
And I think now with whatâs on TV, thatâs sort of the state of modern television is exploring that idea that things can be everything. You know, literally the most popular movie last year was âEverything Everywhere All at Once.â Itâs this sort of dynamic kind of existence that we live in where things can be happy and sad and scary and funny and sexy and silly all at the same time.
âEverything Everywhere All at Onceâ star Michelle Yeoh discusses tokenism, aging, her dangerous early-career stunts and why she prays every night for an Oscar.
Olsen: Your podcast-turned-HBO special, â2 Dope Queens,â it paired you with Phoebe Robinson, and the two of you had such a great dynamic together. Was that difficult to find? Was that just the two of you together, or was that something you had to really work to figure out what that dynamic was going to be?
Williams: No, she and I â I remember doing my first show with her. We were like, âWhoa, that was really fun. We should do that again.â Sometimes with chemistry â you can fake it, actually. I do. You can. And thatâs your job as an actor is to make it work no matter what. And I in particular pride myself on being able to create chemistry with anyone. I really work hard to do that, and sometimes you just have to fake it till you make it.
But when itâs real? When itâs really real, you canât, you just canât fake it. And with her, it was one of those things where if youâre in the zone, if weâre in the zone, itâs like flying. Itâs like you donât know whatâs going to happen, which is that thing that I like. When you have chemistry with another performer, especially â2 Dope Queens,â â the format was that we were just talking â and to be able to go from doing live shows every week, and then selling them out for years, and then getting HBO comedy specials and selling out the Kings Theatre, which is a huge theater in Brooklyn, and doing eight of those and selling out those shows â it speaks to how special it is to get chemistry with someone. It makes you feel like you belong somewhere and you belong with someone. And itâs like, ah. Itâs the best feeling. Itâs like a high, almost like. Itâs the best.
Olsen: And then âThe Fantastic Beastsâ movies that youâve been in â so much of what youâve done has been like on a smaller scale, like kind of indie stuff. What was it like for you to step into the biggest-budget movies you can kind of go in? That must have been a real change of pace.
Williams: Yeah, that was insane doing that, because that was like my first, at the highest level, doing a movie like that. I had my own huge trailer, which was insane. We had a chef that makes us food and whatever you ask for. And I left that job a better actor because I did that job for about five months and I got to watch â you know, thereâs something to English actors. I got to live in London, which was freaking amazing.
Iâve had a Harry Potter tattoo for many years and I was now in this universe. I was working with Colleen Atwood, whoâs just one of the greatest costume designers of all time. I got to be on these sets that were the size of small cities, that were like two to three stories tall, and every detail was thought of. And we had the budget. They would be like, [director] David Yates would be like, âAnd then youâre going to disappear!â And Iâd be like, âDo we have the budget for that?â And heâd be like, âHa ha ha, yes.â You know? Like, yes. We do have the budget for special effects, you know? And so that was a profoundly shaping experience for me.
And you had to stay on the lines. I didnât get the crutch of being able to riff and do improv, which for me can be a bit of a crutch âcause itâs almost like a kind of collaborating and rewriting. And then just watching people up close, like Jude Law and Eddie Redmayne, just kind of like BAFTA dudes, BAFTA boys, just really working up close. Mads Mikkelsen, I got to watch act. Just being able to watch them, I learned so, so much.
I walked away learning the space you could ask for. And because those are really serious actors, quote unquote, because theyâre award-winning actors â and theyâre polite, theyâre very nice and very lovely. But I learned about what itâs like to carve space for your process. And I learned that itâs nice to kindly ask for, for your process at the highest, highest, highest level. If Iâm not getting space to quietly prepare for this scene, pull the director aside or the producer aside and ask for what I need. Or Iâm going to wait till weâre wrapped and Iâm gonna kindly ask for what I need. And I learned that watching really, really, really good, really polite, really kind English actors work. Because theyâre craftsmen. Theyâre men of the craft.
Olsen: And now, given that â and also knowing that youâve been a fan of the âHarry Potterâ books for so long â is there now a difficulty for you? The controversy around J.K. Rowling and her continued comments about the transgender community, is that something thatâs difficult for you now to reconcile?
Williams: I think, like without question, the bottom of my heart and gut, there is just no question at all that trans lives matter and that itâs like, it doesnât make sense for me as a woman of color, minority, Black person to be pushing for the safety of myself without looking around and pushing for the safety and thought and equal rights of others. I wasnât raised like that. That doesnât register to me. I literally just, fundamentally in my heart, believe in the validity of trans people. And I hope that with my work, that that is something that is very clear and that I never, you know, that that never comes into question.
And so, yeah, I mean, I just donât agree in any way, shape or form. And as an actress, itâs tough because Iâm separating my work from the energy around the work. That, like for me, being a part of this big kind of machine in this big world, which is like a network and a studio and a creator, itâs a really, really tough position as just an actor in the whole thing to be a part of. And an up-and-coming actor. It is really, really tough just because at the core of my being, I just donât agree.
Olsen: When you were on âThe Daily Showâ and Jon Stewart was leaving, there were a lot of people who wanted you to take over the show or to be considered for host, and you very pointedly at the time said you did not want that job. Iâve always been curious how you look back on that decision now, from where youâve gone in the years since then, how do you feel about making that decision then now?
Williams: I think I made the right choice. I donât want it. Thatâs a hard job. Itâs a grind. Also, nobody really knows what theyâre talking about. If anybodyâs seen what the job is like, it sure as fâ is me. You know what I mean? If anybody knows the intricacies in all of the world of that job, itâs everyone thatâs worked at that job. And to me, especially for Jon, thatâs what the moneyâs for because youâre working long hours. Youâre watching the news, which is depressing. Thatâs not good for â Iâm gentle, thatâs not good for me to watch the news all the time. Iâm very sensitive. I just canât. Itâs not good for me. I need to go be, like, braless in my backyard and like, paint and listen to like Animal Collective in my backyard. Thatâs the life that I need to do. You know?
Itâs also like, I ran into somebody that was like, âYeah, but we love Jon, like, why isnât he running for president?â And then itâs like, âcause thatâs like a sây job. That job sucks. Or like, âOh, Michelle Obama, why isnât she running for president?â Because she already, sheâs seen how it is to be the â you donât know what itâs like to be the president of the United States. You just donât. That job probably sucks, like really badly. You canât go anywhere. You gotta stay in this big, white house, which for all intents and purposes, for all the photos Iâve seen, looks busted. The White House doesnât look like itâs designed that well. It looks ugly. Youâre stressed. You have to have a secret service follow you around all the time. Everyoneâs mean to you. Like everyoneâs talking sâ. Youâre not making your constituents happy. Youâre not making â no. Itâs like, nobody knows what theyâre talking about unless theyâre in it. Not really. Youâre just saying opinions.
Late-night is a hard job. You do it every night. Thereâs only seven or eight people that do it right now. Itâs not an easy job. Itâs just not.
Olsen: And now do you have some idea of what you have kind of coming up? I know a lot of things are in flux for a lot of people right now. But could we expect more from the â2 Dope Queensâ?
Williams: No, no, no â2 Dope Queensâ coming up. But I do, you know, we got our second season of âShrinking,â and we were supposed to be filming it now, but we do have this writers strike, so weâre just kind of waiting. Thatâs kind of the biggest thing.
I have a movie coming out at some point in 2024. And now Iâm just kind of waiting for the next thing. Iâm not nervous. Right now I can pay my mortgage. And I really want to do stuff that speaks to my skill set now because I just got this incredible experience of âShrinkingâ and I learned so much on this set about what my process is.
Also, that I want to have in my dream world â because Iâm from here where I live now, I just moved back from New York, all my familyâs here, my friends that Iâve known since elementary, middle school, high school and college are here â I want work-life balance. I donât want my life to just be acting. Iâm happiest when Iâm bullsâing with my friends at a bar down on York. Iâm happiest doing inside jokes with my friends on a Duffy â like, a small boat â floating around in Newport Beach, you know? And so I want to do that. I want to be happy in my home, with my friends and my loved ones while doing really rewarding work. But I just want to have a sandwich with my friends, I think. I want to laugh with my friends and then be able to put that into my work.
Olsen: Well, Jessica, I have to say that I follow you on Instagram â
Williams: Oh, Iâm following you. Iâm going to follow you.
Olsen: Oh! Iâm a huge fan of all your home renovation and in particular gardening content. I love your garden so much, and I always enjoy it when you post photos from your garden.
Williams: Thank you. Itâs really important to me. I looked for a really long time for a landscape designer. Sheâs just a badass. Her name is Sarita, and Iâm obsessed with her, and we work together to create the garden. And now I can tell you everything.
Itâs a mostly California native garden, so I get bees and butterflies and it smells like salvia after the rain. And the coolest thing she taught me is, the most progressive thing you can do is decolonize your front yard, which is a lot of times, in the â50s when they were building front yards at the birth of suburbia, they were modeling their lawns, the traditional lawn, after England and those parks. And those are traditionally kind of white-centric, European-centric yards. And so whatâs cool is imagining our landscape in Southern California â or wherever you live â as how it was when the native people lived here. And doing your best to plant, as much as possible, plants that are native to California. Because theyâll do better. Theyâre meant to be here.
And so that was a really interesting concept that she taught me about, you know, you donât just want to have roses, roses, roses. I mean, thatâs gorgeous, but are there California native wild roses? Yes. Then maybe plant that, because thatâs kind of decolonizing your garden. And it makes it easier for all of the animals that live here and you donât have to spend so much on water, and itâs just naturally gorgeous.
Olsen: Uh â
Williams: Your face is so funny right now!
Olsen: Well, no, I think that â you know, Iâm just really appreciating what youâve been saying, and honestly Iâm thinking a bit about my own lawn right now so, itâs just, Jessica, Iâm so excited for more gardening content from you.
Williams: Oh, Iâm so glad. Anytime. I appreciate that.
Olsen: The show is âShrinking.â Jessica Williams, thank you so much for joining us.
Williams: Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it.